Interview with Herbert London, Ph.D.

Family North Carolina Magazine—May/June 2009

On Air With . . .
Herbert London, Ph.D., is president of the Hudson Institute, a world-renowned think-tank in Washington DC. He is professor emeritus and the former John M. Olin Professor of Humanities at New York University. Dr. London is a noted social critic, whose work has appeared in every major newspaper and journal in the country including such diverse publications as Commentary, National Review, American Spectator, Wall Street Journal, Fortune, Washington Times, and the New York Times. He is the author of several books, including his latest, America’s Secular Challenge: The Rise of a New National Religion.

The following is an edited transcript of an interview with Herbert London conducted by Bill Brooks, president of the North Carolina Family Policy Council (NCFPC). An edited version of this interview aired in February 2009 on the Council’s weekly radio program, “Family Policy Matters.” Mr. London discussed his book, America’s Secular Challenge, and some of the threats that radical secularism poses to the United States.

The interview can be heard on www.ncfamily.org.

This interview can be heard in its entirety here: Listen (.mp3) — (Real)

Bill Brooks: What inspired you to write America’s Secular Challenge?

Herbert London: Well, I think that Americans need a wake up call. I am very much concerned about the rise of what I regard as a new religion, a religion of radical secularism. Secularism of course is very much part of American life since we recognize the fact that government and religion are not to be the same, this is very much a part of our tradition. But radical secularism has its own doctrines, its own way of looking at the world, and has become a faith. A faith that I think has an insidious influence on American life because it undermines so many of our traditions.

BB: The topic of your book is of course secularism, as you just said. What is secularism and why do you consider it a religion?

HL: Well, like most religions this one has its prophets, most of whom live on the West side of Manhattan in New York. It has its Bible, The New York Times editorial page. And it has its doctrines. And the doctrines that are associated with it are, of course … atheism and multiculturism, moral relativism, [and] utopian illusions. These are characteristics that are built into this religion, and it’s interesting that many people in the media kind of embrace this view, so that this religious attitude is having a profound effect on American life, even though the number of people who call themselves radical secularists is very small. And as I indicated, I don’t want to confuse it with secularism itself, which is very much a part of the American tradition. But this goes beyond it. It’s a radical secularism, a kind of radical Leftism that by and large is having a very significant effect on cultural views in America.

BB: Well, you mentioned a list of “isms” within secularism. What are some of the major tenets?

HL: Well, let me try to go through them in some detail if I may. I mean multiculturalism, for example, on its face, is a reasonable position. You want to understand many different cultures, but it’s become a self-loathing of the United States, a belief that America and the Western tradition is not worth preserving. One example of this would be the feminists in the United States, who are often talking about the oppression of women, by suggesting that they only earn 80 percent of what a man earns. And yet they clearly overlook the fact that most women in the Muslim world are forced into genital mutilation, and they don’t even consider that. It is not a kind of uniform standard for how to treat women across the board. And so they exaggerate the role that women play in the United States and underestimate or ignore [the role] women are playing in other parts of the globe. Well, clearly there’s a sort of universality when it comes to the way in which women are treated. And not all cultures are the same. Some cultures are clearly superior to others. And it’s a difficult argument to make, but one that is clearly true.

It’s also true that there are people in our society who believe in scientism—that’s the faith that science can answer all questions. And while Darwin answered some questions there’s no question that if you embrace Darwinism, that Darwinism can’t answer all questions. Something is going to be left out, including the ontological question of how did life begin.

And then there is the whole issue of moral relativism, the idea that relativism is kind of insulating itself into notions of right and wrong. Right and wrong only becomes situational, where we are no longer sure what is right and what is wrong. And when Jefferson was our president, he once made the comment the first and overarching responsibility of educators is to teach children right and wrong. But no longer. Now it’s all situational. It’s based on a kind of metaphorical lifeboat. It can only accommodate 10 people, but 11 want to get on. How do we decide which one to throw off? And so that’s what the kind of philosophical position has become.

And then in addition, there’s [the myth], that America is now on its way down, and that it doesn’t represent the hope of the future. That the 20th Century may have been the American century, but the 21st century is not our century. And so there is the view that we have to start accommodating other views and other people largely because America is in decline. Well, I don’t believe that, and if that is true, then it seems to me that we have a very grim and dark future. When young people were in Tiananmen Square in 1988 rebelling against the Chinese government, rebelling against dictatorship, they didn’t build a monument to the prophet Mohammed, and they didn’t build a monument that looked like the Eiffel Tower. They built the Statue of Liberty because the Statue of Liberty represents the aspirations of mankind. People who want to understand and embrace liberty think about the United States. We are that great light for the future, that beacon of hope that people rely on across the globe. There’s a certain universality of liberty that we enjoy that others would very much like to have. So … I think that America still has an awful lot of energy and zest left in [it], in an appeal to the rest of the globe.

BB: What is the main goal of secularism, and why is it important for our listeners to understand?

HL: Well, I think the main goal of radical secularism is to change the character of America, and one of the first and most important elements of it is to virtually deracinate the idea of religion in public life and discourse. And I consider that very dangerous because our nation was built on a foundation of Judeo-Christian principles. We didn’t emerge simply as a secular nation. We emerged as a nation that had deep-seated religious ideas. For example, our Constitution is basically an Augustinian document. It is predicated in the idea that since mankind is fallible and can commit evil, we need a system of checks and balances. That’s where the tripartite system of government came from. It came from a religious idea. And it’s not coincidental that when Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence, he said that we hold these truths to be self-evident that we are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights. And why is that important? Because if our Creator gives us these rights, they can’t be taken away. When states confer rights, they can easily be removed. So it’s important to understand that so many of the important documents and principles of the United States emerged directly from this Judeo-Christian tradition. They did not come out of the brow of Zeus full blown as a Democratic Republic. They came directly from the experiences and the pasts and those experiences associated with the Judeo-Christian tradition. Even the words “All men were created equal” comes right out of the book of Genesis. And so when people say, “Well, we don’t want religion in American life. It should not play a role in the public sphere,” what they are left with is virtually nothing because what America is, whether you like it or not, is a Judeo-Christian tradition. And when Churchill during World War II said we are engaged in a war to defend Christian civilization, he wasn’t saying only Christians, he was talking about a Christian civilization that has provided people with individual rights, with a rule of law, with an understanding of private property, with a defense of our freedoms, that’s what he was talking about and that comes from this religious tradition. So when the atheists tell us, “Well we don’t need this, this is unimportant,” they are really cutting the ties to the past of this kind of organic relationship that we’ve had to our own past. And that is what I regard as very dangerous.

BB: One of the tenets of secularism that you address in the book is the focus on big government as the answer to all of our problems. Why is so much emphasis put on government, and why is this dangerous?

HL: Well, let me explain why I think it is dangerous. Jefferson once made the very interesting point that “a government that is big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take away everything you have.” And I think it is important for people to understand that big government when it is so big that it controls every dimension of your life, can take away those rights as well. And even though it is built into our Constitution and our Declaration of Independence, that our rights are inalienable, there is no doubt that when a government becomes so large and intrusive, it can take away a great deal. If in fact, we have a stimulus package that is going to take from Peter to give to Paul, Paul may be very happy about it, Peter may not be so happy about it. We live in a system that has to be equitable. In fact, the tax rate cannot be used in order to favor some and disadvantage others. We have to put ourselves in a position where we have to recognize the fact that as a nation, we have to work together and create solidarity, not the kind of fissures that exist in a society where government is so large that it can confer privileges to some and take them away from others. So, the danger that exists—the danger that the founding fathers understood so well—is the danger of potential tyranny. ...

BB: You talk in the book about how we as a nation have lost our sense of community-minded patriotism. How did the rise of secularism contribute to this lack of patriotism, and what are the consequences of it?

HL: Well, we have a new movement in the U.S. and to some degree President Obama said he is a “citizen of the world.” You heard the embodiment of the new spirit, and that spirit I describe as transnational progressivism where the United States is merely one of many states, where our history is no longer unique, where the U.S. is not exceptional. This is a view that I think is gaining ground in the world, … that in fact the United States should not longer think of itself as superior or exceptional. Well, I believe the U.S. is exceptional; there is no country in the world that has provided the rights and the privileges and the conference of the United States. There is no nation in the world that has guarded liberty in the way that the United States has. There is no nation in the world that has sacrificed blood and treasure in order to assist other people around the globe in the defense of their freedoms, so I think that the United States is quite unique, and I think that kind of patriotic spirit is necessary for us to retain. But if you believe that America is not exceptional, if you believe that the United States is an imperial power, if you believe that the United States is a colonial power, then in fact why would you defend it, why would you care about the United States, why would that flag have any meaning? So this becomes another one of those insidious characteristics of radical secularism that is very worrisome. Patriotism in the United States is a way of uniting Americans. … It is so critical to bringing together the people of this country to understand that we are united under a flag with a deep set of convictions and beliefs and principles that are worth defending. …

BB: In what specific ways does secularism threaten America today and what is the solution?

HL: I think it’s necessary for us to return to first principles, to understand the role that the founding fathers had in mind when they thought about the creation of this great country. I think with all of the blemishes, with all of the difficulties, this is a nation worth defending. So one, I think that we need a government that speaks about our traditions and why those traditions are necessary to preserve, and number two, I think it’s important for our schools to once again get in the business of understanding and transmitting to youngsters the importance of the United States’ role in the world and world affairs, and why we are blessed to be an exceptional nation. I think the combination of government and education is really critical in bringing about a solution to the kind of radical impulses that we now see so evident in American life.